Reinhard Keck

「你們什麼都做不成。」

而且我是說，在西方，我們總是談某個時間表，談 2027 年，作為臺灣可能被入侵的日期。也有報導說，中國幾乎像是設下了一個時間表。如果幾乎有一個時間表，指向所有這些事情都可能發生的那一點，這對一個國家會造成什麼影響？如果人們被暴露在這種訊息裡，這對他們會造成什麼影響？

我們談話的時候，您沒有提到中國。這有什麼原因嗎？

所以您比較喜歡用更一般性的方式談論專制，而不是談論某一個特定的專制，因為您不想捲入那種——您剛才提到的——某一方喊話、另一方回嗆的競賽，然後你就已經成了那場遊戲的一部分。

您的父母怎麼看？身為新聞工作者，他們是否覺得特別暴露？當您看著香港獨立媒體的遭遇，他們怎麼看待那個局面？他們大概甚至比其他人更擔心嗎？

所以，我們歐洲人在民主傳統上，是不是有點自滿？因為，如您所說，我想許多人認為自己的工作基本上就是每四、五年投一次票，而那是由上而下的——但它需要遠不止於此。

您覺得——我是說，您一直倡議多元的 AI，對吧？一種有許多參與者的 AI 或科技，對吧？但我們此刻看到的，是更多的集中、更多的資本流向非常少數的幾家不同公司。您覺得那種想法，此刻是否正面臨嚴重的威脅？

但您開頭提到了那座巴別塔——我想，許多人覺得，那正是現在正在發生的事，對吧？我們處在一個自中世紀以來未曾有過的時刻，一個機構或極少數機構，控制我們取得什麼樣的資訊，甚至控制我們認為什麼是重要的，而那在中世紀的歐洲，就是天主教會。我們是否正在回到——是否有一種危險，我們正在回到那個情境：一切都非常集中，一切都是非常中央化的訊息，參與感流失，大多數人被困在這個他們從未創造、也從未投票贊成的系統裡？

對，有意思。我是說，臺灣把數位基礎設施當作公共財。

為什麼我們在德國、歐洲、其他國家不能做同樣的事？為什麼你們就是動手做、讓它發生？而在我們的國家，似乎對此有很多阻力。它總是非常、非常——感覺問題多得多，痛苦也多得多。

我的感覺是，臺灣人本身就更貼近科技和創新，對吧？我是說，您現在住在歐洲。您有時會不會覺得，這裡的人對科技就是沒有臺灣人那麼開放？這只是一種不同的心態。

也有一種失去掌控的感覺。

我們還能把局面扭轉回來嗎？我這裡談的是歐洲，更具體地說是德國。您覺得，我們是否還來得及，不把高度集中當成既定事實，也不讓那種失控感支配一切？您覺得我們能拿回控制權嗎？雖然這聽起來有點冷調，因為「奪回控制權」這個口號的典故，但我覺得確實有一種很大的失控感。您覺得，消費者還有辦法奪回一些控制權嗎？

我想，這場對話之後我就去辦。

但我是說，就大局而言，AI 裡還有辦法保有民主參與嗎？還是您覺得，如您所說，是少數人的群體——不是眾人，而是少數人——很高興掌握控制權、控制科技，像 Sam Altman，你知道，或者 Elon Musk。

很有意思。我希望您和您的倡議都能成功，幫助德國和其他地方的政治人物得到新的想法，來增進民主參與。

但我覺得，臺灣在許多事情上做對了，而其他國家還在掙扎著，要對許多這些問題提出自己的想法和答案。所以我想，也許有一課是要更常看向臺灣，而且不只是透過地緣政治的透鏡，也是從您提到的，教育方面來看。是的。我想有很多可以學習的地方。

您有時會不會——因為您現在住在牛津，對吧？

好，所以有一點文化衝擊。

好，了解。那您大部分時間待在哪裡？

您什麼時候在柏林？

這很有意思。也許我該讓我的同事知道。您在那裡有任何媒體行程嗎？

非常感謝您。謝謝。非常精彩。謝謝。

We always edit for clarity and for length, obviously. But I will send the quotes to you so you can check.

Yeah, you sent me the link to that.

Is it a way to remember what you said five years ago?

No, you're right, because usually when you do research, you always get sort of like what the AI tells you — sources that might not be exactly as good, it's not grounded, right? And if it's directly in an archive, yeah, you have it and it's all there.

Yeah, I mean, I'm glad to hear that, because I think journalism as a whole is quite under pressure these days, right? Especially when it comes to how AI is being used in journalism. I think it's all quite new and fresh. And I think it will be very interesting to see what's going to happen in the next one, two years. I mean, things happen so quickly now, right? Who knows what the media landscape is going to look like in five years' time.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about Xi Jinping first and then let's move to technology, if that is fine, of course. Go ahead.

First of all, I think the Donald Trump–Xi Jinping summit a couple of weeks ago was obviously big news and there was a lot of debate about that. Many commentators in the West felt that in the language that Donald Trump used, it was quite a sort of new tone of language about China. Some commentators said it feels a bit like betrayal, even.

It even feels a bit like betrayal.

He did a Fox interview and he refused to commit to defend Taiwan. He claims Taiwan is stealing American technologies. I mean that story has been around for a long time. And he literally said Taiwan should cool down. What do you feel when you hear these comments?

Do Taiwanese people trust Donald Trump?

You mentioned the Sunflower protest — that was really, in a way, the event that made you quite prominent all across the world and also sort of a political awakening for you — you were 33 at the time. What are the lessons you take from that? How relevant are they still today for you?

As you already outlined, economically Taiwan is indispensable for global technology. And TSMC is basically a company that's part of so many technologies we so heavily rely on.

Yeah, yeah. So in a way, it is a part of why Taiwan is such an important ally to the US and also to other countries. But does it also make it a target for Trump?

Two million a day, right?

And who's behind that?

Ah, okay. And has it been rolled out?

Okay. Please, have a bite.

How is your German? Is it… Are you still kind of working on it?

Where did he study in Germany?

Interesting, yeah. Interesting time. I remember back then I grew up in the Black Forest region in the south of Germany — very rural village, very far away from any big city. And once the Wall came down, many people from the GDR, from East Germany, they literally overnight moved to the West. And there were hotels converted into accommodation to house all these people. And I remember it was quite a bit of a shock to the system. When in a very small town — it's not very outward looking, right? — all of a sudden you have that influx, and you can really feel that world history is happening there.

Yeah, for us as kids it was quite strange seeing other children from another part of Germany speaking a different accent, right? Like dressing a different way. I remember it was almost like people from a foreign country, but they were actually our neighbours, right? But in our mentality, it felt like a completely different country, even though it was like one people. So, yeah, and today many of my friends, funnily enough — I moved to Erfurt, which was part of the GDR, on this journey, and I studied there. And today many of my friends are from that area, and I don't really know why. But most of my closest friends grew up in the GDR and grew up in the dictatorship, basically.

I think for them it's not so important for them personally because they were very young, obviously. They don't really remember, you know? They remember that they had to go to certain youth organisations, communist youth organisations. But I think when they turned eight or nine years old, the Wall came down and there was a new time. So I don't think it really shaped their personality in a big way. Whereas for the parents' generation, it's a different thing.

What is your earliest memory from that time?

So when you were 12, you had surgery?

There are a lot of parallels with East Germany — how did you do that? There were mass protests but it was like a peaceful revolution.

When you were seven, you were part of that discussion. Do you feel like in today's situation it's a bit as fragile as you felt back as a child, with so many developments and the eyes of the world on Taiwan? Do you feel there's a new fragility in that situation?

Yeah, of course. I found very interesting what you said in another interview — I might not remember it correctly, but in simple words you basically created a tool that allows people to curate the algorithm in a way that it doesn't give them polarising content, but more like moderating. So they are basically at the steering wheel, and I think it's like a label where users can tag certain content saying it's building bridges rather than being polarising.