Reinhard Keck

Is that still happening?

So I mean, we talk so much about the Digital Services Act, and also in Brussels and here as well. I mean, obviously there would probably be people saying that it would be too much regulation.

And is that because people in Taiwan care more about that? Whereas people here, maybe they just consume and they're like more passive consumers than active —

A few people use it — I haven't used it, but I also don't use X anymore. Because it's just too open and you're like, oh, not this again. It's like a box of unpleasant content that you open and you quickly shut the lid.

Obviously you have a massive followership, right? So probably for you it would be much easier to create a big followership on an independent platform, right?

But your followers from Twitter — when you move to Bluesky, they also need a Bluesky account, right?

You know, I was always thinking about moving to Proton Mail, but I'm using the Google tools quite a lot. I use Google Docs a lot, Google Drive and so on. When I interview entrepreneurs, especially in Germany, many of them are now saying they actively move away from American products.

Yeah, Apertus. But I found it not as good as the American models, not yet, but maybe at one point it will be different. So I think there are lots of initiatives and things that, if you talk about strategic autonomy, there are many things you could do, right? But I think it's not in the public conscience yet.

Do you think it's going to happen? Do you think there will be more like the Swiss model or SEA-LION? Do you think more small independent countries will try to move to that kind of model?

Yeah, we'll talk about it in a little while — I don't want to bring it up now because I have a few questions related to that. Sure, yeah, definitely. I think that it will be very interesting to see how that race — and it is pretty much a race, right? — how it plays out and what kind of other models will become more relevant, maybe more widely adopted.

Which model are you using on a day-to-day basis?

ChatGPT or Claude?

It's funny that you mention that, because I think when you start — when I write, I specifically do not use any AI because I want to train that muscle.

No — well, not Grammarly, but I do use auto-correct, which is also a form of that. But I use it obviously for research, and sometimes I open a tab and I look something up and then I might go deep into it, but I do not use it as a generic way to generate text, because I think, I mean, ethically it's obviously an issue and also I think when you — I think there's a big value in bringing your thoughts on a blank page, right? So that process of thinking and deep thinking and putting it on paper, maybe deleting it again, you know? Or maybe learning from that.

Exactly, that scratch work. I think that's a bit like going to the gym and lifting weights.

And I think when it comes to LLMs, I think it's similar. But at the same time, I also think it's a bit of an ethical question as well, because my children, they have to learn how to write at school, right, and they have to write essays and they have to write, you know, like a little text or something like a book review or things like that. And if LLMs become the norm for any sort of text production, they're gonna ask, hang on, why am I doing this, right? If everyone's using LLMs and AI to create text content, why should I bother, right? So, I think there's also a bit more of an ethical question in there. And also like a bit of a role model. And I mean, obviously in the grand scheme of things, that won't change a lot. But I think in terms of what I want to show my children, why it's important — sort of lifting that brain activity and working out that brain, I think, is very important.

So this disincentivises cheating, because cheating is no use, right? It doesn't create — it actually creates a disadvantage.

Very interesting.

Do you think primary school is a place where AI should be used or should play a role?

It's interesting that you mention that. Is there a temptation to, if there's a screen, just try to touch it anyway? Or do you think it really makes a difference how a screen is presented and how it's kind of like part of…

That's very interesting. I think not many people are aware of how to use these tools in a way that is safe and healthy.

Interesting. We've been speaking briefly about that resilience in relation to cyber attacks. And as you said, cyber attacks basically test your system, right? And it also to some degree tests your resilience.

Where do these attacks come from and what is their range?

"You're not getting anything done."

And I mean, here in the West, we always talk about a certain timeline, about 2027 as a date when Taiwan might get invaded. And there were reports about China setting out almost like a timeline. What does that do to a country if there's almost like a timeline to a point where all of these things could happen? What does it do to people if they're exposed to this messaging?

You do not mention China when we talk. Is there a reason why you don't do that?

So you prefer speaking about autocracy in more general terms and not sort of speaking about one specific autocracy, because you don't want to engage in that sort of — what you mentioned — that race where one side mentions something and the other side mentions back, and then you're already part of that game.

What do your parents think? As journalists, do they feel especially exposed? When you look at what has happened in Hong Kong with independent media there, what do they make of that situation? Are they probably even more concerned than other people?

So are we in Europe a bit complacent when it comes to our democratic traditions? Because, as you say, I think many people, they see their job as basically voting every four or five years, and that's top-down — but it needs much more than that.

Do you think there's — I mean, you've always advocated for pluralistic AI, right, an AI or technology that has a lot of participants, right? But what we are seeing at the moment is more concentration, more capital flow among a very small group of different companies. Do you think that sort of idea is under severe threat at the moment?

But you mentioned that Tower of Babel in the beginning — many people, I think, see that this is what's happening right now, right? That we are at a point where we haven't been since medieval times, where one institution or very few institutions control what kind of information we get, even what we think of as important, which was, in medieval times in Europe, the Catholic Church. Are we getting back to — is there a danger that we are getting back to that scenario where it's all very centralised, there's all very central messaging, a loss of participation, where most people are trapped in this sort of system they've never created and they've never voted for?

Yeah, interesting. I mean, Taiwan treated digital infrastructure as a public good.

Why can't we do the same in Germany, Europe, other countries? Why do you guys just do it and make it happen? And it seems like in our countries, there's a lot of resistance to that. It's always very, very — it feels much more problematic and much more painful.

I think my feeling is that people in Taiwan are per se much more in proximity to technology and innovation, right? I mean, you're now living in Europe. Do you sometimes think that people here are just not as open-minded towards technology as people in Taiwan, for example? It's just a different mindset.

There's also a loss of control.

Can we still turn things around? I'm talking here about Europe and Germany more specifically. Do you think there's still a point where we do not just accept that there's a big concentration and that we basically don't let that feeling of loss of control dominate everything? Do you think we can get back control? Even though that's a bit of a deadpan slogan because of the getting-back-control idea, but I think that there is a big sense of loss of control. Do you think there's still a way to wrestle back some control for the consumer?

I think I'll do that after the conversation.

But I mean, like, in the grand scheme of things, is there a way to still have democratic participation in AI? Or do you think, as you said, there's a group of a few — not of the many, but of a few — who are quite happy to be in control and controlling the technology, like Sam Altman, you know, or Elon Musk.

Interesting. I hope you and your initiatives are successful and help politicians in Germany and elsewhere to get new ideas to increase democratic participation.

But I think Taiwan did many things right where other countries are still kind of struggling to come up with their own ideas and their own answers to many of these questions. So I think maybe one lesson is to look more to Taiwan, and not only through a geopolitical lens, but also, from what you mentioned, when it comes to education. Yes. There are many lessons to be learned, I guess.

Do you sometimes — because now you're living in Oxford, right?

Okay, so there's a bit of a culture shock.

Okay, all right. So where do you spend most of your time?

When are you in Berlin?

That's interesting. Maybe I should let my colleagues know. Do you do any press engagements there?

Thank you so much. Thank you. It was amazing. Thank you.