Alexa Raad

我是 Alexa Raad。

歡迎收聽 TechSequences。2019 年 12 月 30 日，一位 34 歲的中國眼科醫師李文亮，在中國通訊軟體微信上發了一則訊息給他的醫學院校友。這則原本毫不起眼的校友交流，後來竟標誌著一場全球公共衛生危機的開端，也暴露了面對那場危險時應對的種種不足。李醫師後來說，他只是想提醒大學同學們小心。在那則微信貼文裡，他警告同學：他在七名病患身上觀察到一種類似 SARS 的疾病，而這些病患恰好都在武漢同一座海鮮市場工作。李醫師的警告遭到忽視，他本人更被衛生官員和警方噤聲。整整一個月後，世界衛生組織宣布公共衛生緊急事件；再過六天，李醫師便病逝於他所警告的同一種病毒。

又過了兩個月，川普政府才在 2020 年 3 月 13 日宣布 COVID-19 為全國衛生緊急狀態。歷史學家在美國對 COVID-19 危機的應對中，找不到多少值得敬佩之處，許多其他西方政府的應對也是如此。在美國，政府不僅未能及時承認危機的真實性和嚴重性，也未能確保正確資訊的傳播，以及重要醫療衛生物資的採購與配送。對許多西方人來說，2020 年初疫情的記憶，是一幕幕口罩、消毒用品等基本物資短缺的影像，以及不斷攀升的死亡數字。

然而，臺灣或許正好給大家上了一課——不只是對抗公共衛生危機的課，更是公民參與、創新和數位民主的課。記取 2003 年 SARS 疫情的教訓，臺灣運用嚴謹的疫調和科技來溝通、徵集創新點子。臺灣對口罩等重要防疫物資的存量，也保持了驚人的透明。這套應對方式，很大程度上可以追溯到一位自稱持守的安那其主義者、道家信徒、數位民主的堅定捍衛者。

希望沒有下一次。

會有的。是啊。

是啊，很遺憾。

在美國，特別是這次 COVID，我們在 COVID-19 的假訊息上遇到了巨大的危機。你提到臺灣對同樣的問題有一套有趣的做法，叫「幽默勝過謠言」。這是什麼意思？實際上怎麼運作？可以舉些例子嗎？

我想它也好記得多，對吧？迷因。

所以你們其實是用了病毒式的做法。我是說，你們把它病毒式傳播的那一面，反過來為己所用。

但它也比較不那麼對抗、比較不那麼……它、它訴諸大家的理智，讓大家成為解方的一部分，而不只是「你必須這樣做」。

也比較不會製造對立。

那麼，如果說你是參與式民主和協作的堅定支持者，這樣說恰當嗎？假如沒說錯的話——有哪些技術是你樂觀看待、或者實驗過的？

你、你剛提到的例子——類似臺灣版的 Reddit——你說它沒有營利動機，我的理解對吧？所以是商業模式的問題。這正是我們在西方對社群媒體平臺和一些大型科技公司頭痛的地方：他們的整套商業模式就是圍繞營利動機、圍繞使用者參與度。而在一個充斥假訊息的社會裡，這當然就變成想盡辦法讓使用者黏著，然後散播那些更有害的迷因。

那麼，據我了解，你對科技、對政府都有一套非常有意思的哲學。可不可以請你，第一，先談談你身為持守的安那其主義者的哲學；第二——抱歉把問題弄得更複雜——你認為我們西方現在這套社群媒體的設計是錯的嗎？這些商業模式是有害的嗎？

是啊。這個畫面非常生動。

哇。

你描述的這些，我不會說是臺灣特有的，但確實跟美國大多數地方很不一樣。

不過、不過我得說，我住在美國的佛蒙特州，一個非常鄉村的州——我想人口是全美 50 州裡第二少的。我們的州長從一開始就非常積極地為這個州做對的事，包括每天開「有問必答」的記者簡報會。而且、而且我們這裡的確診率也低得多——一方面是因為我們住得很分散，但另一方面，也是因為你提到的一些原則，以非常不同的方式在這裡落實了。我只是想特別點出這一點：你正在說明的這些原則確實很重要，無論它們在世界各地是怎麼落實的。

但我想，有些批評者可能會說：「好，你知道，第一，臺灣小得多。你面對的是像美國這樣複雜得多的體系——好幾個州，你沒辦法強制統一。」比方說疫調，這裡每一州都有自己的 App、自己的權限設定。所以我想知道，有人會拿這個來批評，也會說：「你知道，還有文化因素吧。」你怎麼回應？

呃，現在我們大家正搶著去加油站把車加滿。我沒有——我家沒油可加——但是啊，我們……各種搶購——

那是另一個問題。

你說過：與其想著「政府」這個中心化的概念，我們應該把問題重新框架成「治理」。比方說，就像網際網路的治理模式：沒有中央政府，而是一系列環環相扣的機制，讓多方利害關係人都能參與。臺灣的政府離這個模式有多近？

但這不是預設了你有一群充分知情的選民嗎？因為民主的問題之一就是：如果選民不知情，或者很容易被操弄——像 2016 年某部分選民那樣——那你就算有安全無虞的投票箱、有最好的基礎建設，你的問題還是在於：在參與式民主裡，這群選民事實上可能投出違背自身利益的票。

是。

你剛剛描述的，就是徹底的透明。而且是徹底、即時的透明。

那麼，如果你要為美國政府的數位策略、甚至大型科技公司的角色提供建議，你會優先處理哪些議題？你會建議什麼？

啊哈。

太好了。

這很培力，因為它真的、你知道，它把每個人都拉進來：這是「我們的」問題，要由我們來解決，不是別人的事。

說到這個，我相信你的許多觀點，都來自你自身的經歷。而且、而且研究你的背景時——我得說，那簡直可以拍成一部好萊塢電影。你知道，14 歲輟學，決定自學。在 Apple 參與 Siri 的工作，還要求用比特幣支薪——那是哪一年，2014 年？要是我們當年也想到把這個寫進聘僱合約就好了。實在太多故事了。臺灣最年輕的政務委員。這樣的背景——我是說，你這些非常特別、多樣的經歷——是不是真的深刻影響了你對治理和科技的想法？

沒錯，沒錯。我想你說的是不是：當我們用某種方式給自己貼上標籤，我們就注定要照著那個部落、那種身分的規範行事，這也讓我們更容易陷入衝突，因為變成了「我們」對抗「他們」。這樣說恰當嗎？

是。

I'm Alexa Raad.

Welcome to TechSequences. On December 30th, 2019, a 34-year-old Chinese ophthalmologist named Li Wenliang wrote a message to his medical school alumni on the Chinese messaging app WeChat. This otherwise unremarkable exchange between university alumni would come to mark the beginning of a global public health crisis and define the inadequacy of the response that danger had posed. Dr. Wenliang later said that all he wanted to do was to remind his university classmates to be careful. In the WeChat post, he warned his classmates about a SARS-like illness that he had observed in seven patients who happened to work in the same seafood market in Wuhan. Dr. Wenliang's warning was ignored, and he was silenced by both medical officials and the police. Exactly a month later, the World Health Organization would declare a public health emergency, and just six days later, Dr. Wenliang would succumb to the very same virus he had warned about.

It took another two months before the Trump administration would declare COVID-19 a national health emergency on March 13th, 2020. Historians will not find much to admire in the US response to the COVID-19 crisis, nor the response of many other Western governments. In the US, not only did the government fail to acknowledge the reality and severity of the crisis in time, but it also failed to ensure dissemination of accurate information, as well as the procurement and distribution of essential medical and health supplies. For many in the West, recollections of the early part of 2020 and the pandemic are punctuated by images of shortages of basic supplies like masks and disinfectants, and images of mounting death tolls.

However, Taiwan may well provide the lesson not only in battling a public health crisis, but also in civic engagement, innovation, and digital democracy. Informed by lessons from a 2003 SARS epidemic, Taiwan employed rigorous contact tracing and technology to communicate and solicit innovative ideas. Taiwan also had remarkable transparency on the availability of vital public health supplies like masks. Much of this response can be traced to an avowed conservative anarchist, Taoist, and a fierce champion of digital democracy.

Hopefully there's no next time.

There will be. Yes.

Yes, sadly.

In the US we've had, particularly with COVID, we've had a huge crisis in terms of disinformation around COVID-19. You mentioned that you have an interesting approach to that same problem in Taiwan, which is humor over rumor. What do you mean by that, and how did that work? Can you give us some examples?

I assume it's also much more memorable, isn't it? The meme.

So you actually use the viral approach to it. I mean, you use the viral part of it to your own advantage.

But it's also less combative and less... It, it plays to people's good sense and makes them part of the solution, not just, "You must do this."

And divisive.

So is it fair to say that you're a fierce proponent of participatory democracy and collaboration? And, assuming it is fair to say that, what are some of the technologies that you're optimistic about or have experimented with?

Your, the example that you mentioned, sort of the Taiwanese equivalent of Reddit, you said that it does not have a profit motive, I understand. Right? So the business model. This is what we're struggling with in the West with the social media platforms and some of the big tech, in that their whole business model is around a profit motive, is around user engagement, which of course, in a disinformation sort of laden society, is all about getting that user engaged and disseminating some of these more harmful memes.

So am I to understand, you've got a very, very interesting philosophy about not just technology, but also about government. So can you, A, first talk about that philosophy as a conservative anarchist, and two, if, I'm sorry to make this a more complicated question, do you think that what we have in the West, the way that our social media is set up is wrong? That these business models are harmful?

Right. That's a very vivid image.

Wow.