可引用的發言段落Citable transcript turn#161773講者:Speaker: Tom AtleeTo have that level of abstraction that is not total abstraction is design abstraction. You need a pillar to hold up the roof, kind of thing. 逐字稿導覽Transcript navigation查看前後文View context分享此段Share turn來源逐字稿Source record2018-03-23 Conversation with Tom Atlee and Miki Kashtan