Jean-Marie Guéhenno

Okay, we are about to start, and I want to thank our panelists. I think we should be joined by Emmanuel Bacry in a few minutes, but we'll start anyway now. This morning, we heard about the substance of AI, we heard about what's going on backstage, all the infrastructure of the data economy, discussing data centers, submarine cables, satellites, and all that is necessary for this connected world to work.

In this panel, we really want to draw some conclusions or at least sharpen our questions on the geopolitical dimension of what's going on. For that, we have four panelists who each bring a lot to the discussion. I will start with Kori Schake, who I have known for many years.

Delighted to see you again, Kori. She works at the American Enterprise Institute and has been working on security for many years. When we first met, when security was not seen as it is seen now, it's really profoundly different.

I want to ask you, Kori, how disruptive is AI for the international security architecture? Is it going to consolidate the dominance of a few AI superpowers, or is it going to disseminate power in an unpredictable way for the good and for the bad?

So we are going to continue in a way with the same question, but focusing on China and the United States. Melanie Hart, you are focusing on that tech competition actually goes beyond AI between China and the United States. You're regularly going to China, checking on the state of play.

How do you see that competition? How do you see China leverage its technical and technological prowess into geopolitical advantage or not?

I'm going to soon turn to Audrey, but before I want to ask Emmanuel a couple of questions because it happens that this morning we already discussed briefly, as he was presenting, when the various types of AI, we discussed briefly DeepSeek. The question is really, do you, I mean Emmanuel is a AI scientist, and do you really believe that there are shortcuts in a way to using much less data and being much cheaper? I mean, how do you see the competition from your standpoint as a...

I want to turn to Audrey Tang. You were the first digital minister in Taiwan, you are the Taiwan cyber ambassador, and you've been working a lot on the positive views of AI. And as Emmanuel reminded us, I mean, AI, large language model are just one compartment of AI.

There are many uses of AI. And so if one looks beyond the US-China competition and looking at AI and not focusing just on the security side of things, what do you see as the upside opportunities created by AI in connecting citizens, in increasing capacity to solve societal problems? What is the potential?

And I think it's important for this group of diplomats. I mean, they come from rich countries, from developing countries, from really all over the world. And what is the potential of AI to redistribute power for good, possibly for bad?

On what Audrey just said, I saw Emmanuel, you were... Sorry?

Thank you. I want to come back to Kori. You said at the beginning that it's much too early to answer the kind of existential question that I asked.

But as you see it today, not projecting in the future, do you see AI being in the existing conflict, in the existing battles that we see? Do you see AI playing, I mean, rebalancing situation between actors? We have the Ukraine war.

We have the Iran, Israel, US war. So these are war that are existing, that are happening today with extensive use of artificial intelligence and data in both cases. How do you see the impact in those existing conflicts?

Thank you very much. That's actually very important, I think, for many countries around the world, what you just said. But let's now move beyond war and think about the positive views of AI.

Audrey gave us a wonderful example of a small model that produces very good results at relatively low cost. And so I'm tempted to ask the question to all of you. As we look forward to the future development of AI, I mean, Melanie, I think you said there was too much obsession, people were too obsessed as who is going to be number one.

As you look at, as you compare what's going on in China, what's been going on in the United States, and there is not enormous transparency because each company has its own strategy and we don't always understand what's being done. How do you see the potential positive development of AI? And I think that's a question for Melanie, for Emmanuel, for Audrey, for Kori.

How do you see the positive developments that can happen? And in the case of Emmanuel, I would add, how do you see Europe playing its part there? Because Europe has, in a way, missed part of the first data revolution, all the big tech giants are either American or Chinese.

But Europe is sitting on a trove of quality data, which for a number of users of AI have great value. So there's a question there also on how countries that are developing AI can link up together for the positive. Who wants to start first?

Any words on that? Any comment on Audrey, on all your views? I mean, as you monitor technology, when comparing US and China, do you see, apart from strengthening the power of the state, do you see developments comparable to what Audrey described for Taiwan?

Emmanuel and Kori, the last word before we open to questions.

OK, maybe we can open to questions because we can't hear anything.

Yes, go ahead.

The panel. So you pick the questions that you feel most comfortable.

Okay, who wants to start?

Melanie?

On this optimistic and positive note, I think that's a good ending. And I want to thank all our panelists, Kori, who had to leave, Melanie, Audrey, and Emmanuel. I think it was a very good discussion.

For me, the key takeaway is that, in a way, data are the oil of the future, and that every country sits on a trove of data which is valuable if it makes those data reliable, if it makes them accessible, interoperable, if it protects privacy. So all sorts of ifs that require a lot of thinking and efforts. But in a way, we all produce data around the world, rich and poor countries.

If we manage to produce them well, then there's an enormous field for cooperation and enormous potential for progress. And I think that's a pretty encouraging thought at the moment when we feel that there are only a few big companies that are going to control us through the data. I mean, the image of Audrey, I mean, is it extractive or is it not extractive?

And if we move from an extractive economy to a non-extractive economy, there's real hope. So thank you all. Thank you very much.

好的，我們準備開始了，首先要感謝各位與談人。我想 Emmanuel Bacry 幾分鐘後就會加入我們，但我們現在先正式開始。今天上午，我們探討了 AI 的實質內容，聽到了幕後運作的情況，也就是資料經濟的所有基礎設施，討論了資料中心、海底電纜、衛星，以及讓這個互聯世界運轉所需的一切。

在這一場座談中，我們希望能得出一些結論，或者至少就眼前局勢的地緣政治維度提出更尖銳的提問。為此，我們邀請了四位與談人，每位都能為討論帶來豐富的視角。我先從認識多年的 Kori Schake 開始。

很高興再次見到你，Kori。她在美國企業研究院（AEI）工作，多年來一直從事安全領域研究。回想我們初次相遇時，安全議題的樣貌與今日截然不同，如今確實發生了極為深刻的變化。

我想請教你，Kori，AI 對國際安全架構的顛覆程度有多大？它會進一步鞏固少數幾個 AI 超級大國的支配地位，還是會以不可預測的方式分散權力——無論是帶來正面還是負面的影響？

那我們某種程度上將延續同一個問題，但把焦點放在美中兩國。Melanie Hart，你專注於美中之間實際上超越了 AI 範疇的科技競爭。你經常前往中國了解最新局勢。

你如何看待這場競爭？你認為中國如何將其技術與科技實力轉化為地緣政治優勢，抑或無法轉化？

我很快會請唐鳳發言，但在此之前我想先問 Emmanuel 幾個問題。今天早上他在簡報各種 AI 類型時，我們已經簡短討論過 DeepSeek。問題在於，Emmanuel 本身是 AI 科學家，你真的相信有所謂的捷徑，可以大幅減少資料使用量並大幅降低成本嗎？從你的專業角度來看，你如何看待這場競爭……

我想請教唐鳳。你曾任台灣首任數位發展部部長，現任台灣數位治理無任所大使（cyber ambassador），一直致力於推動 AI 的正面應用。正如 Emmanuel 提醒我們的，大型語言模型只是 AI 的一個分支。

AI 有許多用途。如果我們超越美中競爭的視角來看待 AI，而不僅僅聚焦於安全防衛層面，你認為 AI 在連結公民、提升解決社會問題能力方面帶來了哪些正面機遇？其潛力何在？

我認為這對現場的這群外交官非常重要。他們來自富裕國家、發展中國家，來自世界各地。AI 在重新分配權力方面有何潛力——無論是轉向善用，還是可能轉向惡用？

針對唐鳳剛才說的，我看見 Emmanuel，你剛才……抱歉？

謝謝。我想回頭請教 Kori。你一開始提到，要回答我提出的那種存在性問題還為時過早。

但就你當前所見——不作未來的預測——你是否看到 AI 已經應用於我們眼前的既有衝突和實戰中？你是否認為 AI 正在發揮作用，重新平衡各方力量？例如烏克蘭戰爭。

還有伊朗、以色列與美國之間的衝突。這些都是當前正在發生的戰爭，雙方都廣泛運用了人工智慧和資料。你如何看待 AI 在這些既有衝突中的影響？

非常感謝。你剛才所說的，我認為對全球許多國家都至關重要。但現在讓我們跳脫戰爭視角，思考 AI 的正面用途。

唐鳳剛才向我們展示了一個絕佳範例：小型模型如何以相對較低的成本產出極佳成果。因此我想向大家提出這個問題。當我們展望 AI 的未來發展時——Melanie，你剛才提到人們過於執著於誰要爭第一。

當我們比較美中兩國的動態時，由於每家公司都有自己的商業策略，外界無法完全理解其內部運作，缺乏高度透明度。大家如何看待 AI 潛在的正面發展？我想把這個問題拋給 Melanie、Emmanuel、唐鳳和 Kori。

你們認為有哪些正向發展的可能？針對 Emmanuel，我想額外請教：你如何看待歐洲在其中扮演的角色？因為歐洲某種程度上錯過了第一波資料革命，大型科技巨頭不是美國的就是中國的。

但歐洲坐擁高品質資料的寶庫，這對許多 AI 應用來說具有巨大價值。因此這裡也涉及一個問題：正在發展 AI 的各國如何攜手合作以發揮正面效益？誰想先發言？

對此有何看法？對唐鳳的發言大家有何評論？當你在監測科技發展、比較美中兩國時，除了看到國家權力的強化之外，是否也看到了類似唐鳳在台灣所描述的這類發展？