關於這點我有一個問題。當你說「考慮所有觀點」時，要怎麼確保有些不值得考慮的觀點不會被放進來？我們有位同事是 Navajo（納瓦霍人），如果你看已發表的 Navajo 相關內容，並不完全準確、公平或平等。這裡有沒有可以調整的地方？
我很喜歡你談「人類在 AI 迴路中」，以及這個比喻其實對我們沒有幫助。可以談談嗎？
這個重構改變一切。
你曾說，AI 的滅絕風險可能類似疫情或核風險，因此更像全球協調問題。你也說，你相信我們會有時間對齊。為什麼？
這讓我想到很多。我也很喜歡你把 AI 和柏拉圖洞穴所做的類比。我的理解是，線上的東西只是我們已經能感知到的東西，甚至沒有捕捉完整經驗，然後我們又把那拿來當資料。
幫我們清除快取。
你說的所有事情裡都有一條共通線索。你在談科技，但其實又不只是談科技。你在談的是，當我們彼此的關係被媒介得很糟或很好時，我們這些智人會發生什麼。當科技從「鑽取」我們的注意力，轉向「駭入」我們的依附，關係本身就成為利害所在。你說過你的關懷或分析的基本單位，其實是關係，而不是個人。可以談談嗎？
再多說一點最後那個想法。
我剛剛才意識到，ChatGPT 在每一次提問的結尾都會問：你想不想讓我……
Claude 不會。
可以說，世界之所以得到唐鳳，是因為你能超越很多東西——性別、系統、正式教育——而這些是大多數人做不到的。我不知道是什麼造就了你，而且我們也不會想把其中某些事情複製到孩子身上。但我們要怎麼養出更多 Audrey？我有兩個兒子，所以這是一個很自私的問題。
我在想，你在政府八年期間把所有事情都做成逐字稿，是否就是「在消亡前發表」的延續？
天啊，好。或許有一天，你收到的不是十封信，而是版稅。
好，我要給你幾個選擇題，請告訴我——韌性（resilience）還是反脆弱（anti-fragility）？
太好了。希望，還是勇氣？
這完全改變了我的觀點。還有很多其他的事。非常感謝你。
我有個沒講出來的笑話：「要嘛照唐鳳的方式，要嘛華為（Audrey's way or the Huawei）。」
對極了。
我可以再跟你聊兩個小時，但我不會再為難你了。謝謝。
生生不息，繁榮昌盛。
Audrey，我們真的很慶幸那枚硬幣落對了面。
大家請記住：
點燃篝火，而不是野火。 耕耘土壤，不要鑽探石油。 戰爭迷霧不是天氣。 方向盤屬於我們每一個人。 睡滿八小時。 當個「夠好」的祖先。
我是 Hala Hanna。感謝您收聽 The Solve Effect。
如果還沒訂閱，請在您收聽 podcast 的任何地方訂閱 The Solve Effect。
Welcome to The Solve Effect. I am your host, Hala Hanna.
What if you were incapable of getting angry because your heart literally could not handle it? Would that forced stillness shape the way you move through the world? For today's guest, that is her origin story.
Audrey Tang grew up with a heart condition so serious that any strong emotion could land her in the hospital. She learned to stay radically calm. The heart condition was corrected at 12. The equanimity stayed. In 2014, Taiwan's Sunflower Movement pulled her back home. Three hundred thousand students occupied parliament. She left Silicon Valley and livestreamed what she clarifies was not a protest, but a demonstration of an alternative way to govern.
Two years later, Taiwan's government invited her to become its first digital minister, and the youngest. Tang served for eight years as the world's first openly non-binary cabinet minister. She made broadband a human right. The COVID response she helped build is one of the most praised and studied. She helped move public trust from single digits to about 70 percent. She even made Taiwan start school an hour later. And she did it all in public, posting every meeting, every transcript, every decision.
She is now Taiwan's Cyber Ambassador, and she is, by her own account, a civic hacker, a conservative anarchist, a poetician, a Taoist meditator, and my personal favourite, a hopemonger. Audrey, welcome to The Solve Effect.
What does it do to a child to spend 12 years learning, in such a visceral way, that life is a 50/50 toss?
So imperfection is an invitation. Do you still practise that today?
That is very empowering. Permission to be imperfect.
Knowing that your own extinction was near gave you the urge to share rather than accumulate. How do we make that work for others? I am thinking of the tech industry today. How do we wrestle accumulation away from the accumulators?
That is also Adam Smith's specialisation: each thing doing what it does best, rather than the vision we are being sold now, which is data centres covering the entire Earth.
You were reading classical literature by four, writing poems by four, coding at eight, dropped out of junior high at 14, were already collaborating with Harvard and Stanford researchers, and built your first startup at 15. Are you trying to make us all feel bad about ourselves?
You also describe yourself as a competitive sleeper. What does that mean?
And that is stored locally?
Are you going to open source that?
You found community online very young, where you could be whoever you wanted to be included as.
Publicly wrong, and being 15 instead of 14. What were your parents like?
That is probably the other way around in the United States, where liberal and secular often correlate very highly.
Now I understand more about your parents as journalists, the truth-seeking, and the history of Taiwan when you were growing up. When the Sunflower Movement happened in 2014 and students occupied parliament, you wrote to a colleague in California that you needed to leave.
In 2011, the Arab Spring began. Was there anything you borrowed from that movement? And why do you think Taiwan did so well after Sunflower, when the score elsewhere has been more mixed?
Say more about shadowboxing.
In the early 2010s, you went to Silicon Valley and asked to be paid in Bitcoin. Very smart move.
Do you still have them?
Sometimes you can be too early.
But you were inside the machine when it was being built. Were you noticing even then that people were not paying enough attention to the early signs of PPM?
That is a great tip. I am going to do it now.
